Your piece on the British Supreme Court’s ruling on sex and gender articulated so well the nuances contained. I’m going to send it to my two adult sons who will be interested as they really try to understand but get lost in the heated debates from so many directions. Also, Helen, thank you for pointing out something that women so often talk about between themselves but isn’t often said out loud in mixed company. Men talking endlessly about themselves. Oh God. Having to maintain the fixed expression of polite interest. It’s worse among older men, I’ve noticed the younger ones aren’t so bad.
I wonder if it’s not so much a gender thing as getting older/more successful. I’ve been watching the U.S. Office and one of the things that Michael Scott clearly relishes about being the boss is that whenever he’s bored, he can wander over to his staff and make them entertain him.
Maybe we can use it explicitly as a tactic when stuck in listening mode “I’ve noticed men don’t ask questions as often as women - what questions do you like to ask / what do you find interesting about other people / what question do you love or hate to be asked / ask me a question !” or something ?!
Like Helen my job is asking questions. I’m a researcher, moderating focus groups. I was taught not to respond to any questions asked of me in the group as the sessions are meant to be all about the participants and what they think. My old boss told me once, as preparation, to spend a normal day talking to people without once saying anything about myself. It is astonishing how few people ask. Also so so true about older men just pontificating all the time - I don’t find it true of older women.
When a friend of my parents died unexpectedly a few years ago, my mum offhandedly gave him one of the nicest tributes I’d ever heard - “he was always so interested in you when we was talking to you.” It made such sense soon as she said it, about him first of all, but also about the quality of really being curious about whoever you’re talking to.
Thank you for the Atlantic piece and for your voice in general on the gender/sex issue. Some of the commentary from UK journalists who believe themselves to be ‘progressive’ has been so America-brained that it makes me want to scream. Do they not understand the cultural and political differences, or is it just too perilous for them to acknowledge them? I don’t *want* to believe that these people just don’t give a single shit about the particular characteristics of British feminism (which is by no means exclusively GC, but has a much stronger and more successful history of sex-based and radical campaigning than US feminism). But the past week has made it very hard to come to any other conclusion. Is it really possible that so many supposedly sophisticated observers just… don’t conceive of older feminists as being real, actually existing people?
Some of it is chronic America brain, like Carla Denyer talking about the price of eggs (flat here but chaotic in the U.S. because of their bird flu). And some of it is wanting to play the argument on easy mode. Some people on the left think entirely tribally — describing something as “right wing” is all that’s needed to prove its evil — so they’d rather fight Donald Trump than their actually existing opposition, Mumsnet.
Well, no sane person wants to fight Mumsnet... As an example of my own UK-brain, your explanation of why the toilets issue has become so totemic was revelatory. I had always been baffled about why so many people spent most of the past decade wanging on about bogs.
I also think it's because they're unpoliceable, so they will always be a social norm rather than a law (unless we move to a police state, which seems unlikely, given the police haven't even got time for phone and bike thefts).
I love your work, always interesting and entertaining. I knew nothing of assassin’s creed and I was intrigued…I had no idea. So thank you, again, for shining a light on something I hadn’t seen…ironically in broad daylight!
"Be interested to be interesting" was advice I heard years ago.
You say you ask questions but many journalists make statements and then stick the microphone under the interviewees nose: it's infuriating. "ask a damn question!" I shout at the TV.
It frustrates the wife that I can come back from spending time with male friends, and none of us did any asking. Didn't you ask about {some_subject}, she'll ask incredulously, and no I didn't, and I din't feel a need to.
It seems to split down gender lines, but even if it doesn't, there are askers and there are tellers. I guess you're the former. Being an "asker" and getting mildly annoyed because "tellers" aren't the same as you ignores these personality differences.
It's like those people who fall asleep instantly getting annoyed at the insomniacs. "Just close your eyes and fall asleep!". It's easy. I do it all the time.
Also - and I hope you'll allow a bit of side-eye here, your job, the thing you love doing the most, is asking people about themselves. Of course other people aren't going to be as good at it as you. How can you expect otherwise?
Well, the thing I love doing the most is receiving hyperbolic, unstinting praise. But I take your point.
I just think if we’re going to take the male loneliness crisis seriously, part of that is encouraging men to seek social connections. Maybe your mate isn’t going to open up about his divorce or losing his job or whatever without feeling permission from someone asking how he is.
But seriously, I think Sean has a good point. Relatedly, I've noticed that my husband can be perfectly happy *doing* things together rather than having deep talks. He can go fishing or play board games with friends and come home with his friendship tank full, if that makes sense. But does it still absolutely crush me that I don't think he's literally ever asked me a personal question? Yesssssss
Pop star Robbie Williams said quite recently that he deals with his social anxiety (yes, even apparently-outgoing pop stars can have social anxiety) by pretending to be a podcast host who needs to find out the most interesting things about their guest. So he asks lots of questions.
And if you watch his interviews you’ll notice him doing it - on the Graham Norton show, he asks the other guests questions rather than just wait for Graham to give him an anecdote-cue. And he listens to their answers and follows up.
What strikes me about that volleyball story is how important ‘breaking the seal’ was - people kinda knew, but were not talking about it. Once someone spoke up and there was suddenly permission to talk about it openly it completely snowballed.
Also: American College Sports scholarships are barmy, but given their existence it surprises me that female-born students being passed over for them in favour of male-born students wasn’t the crux of the political issue.
That’s what the player I talked to for my piece raised, to be fair — she was one of 11 kids from Hawaii and the scholarship was the only way she could go to uni. I think it’s not mentioned overtly very often because Americans assume it’s a given: sports equal scholarships.
It is a given for opponents of trans ideology, but it's a non-starter with the true believers because they either don't think about how this impacts female students or they begin with the assumption that trans girls are girls and thus are deserving of the scholarship.
The Japan/size thing is interesting. While it's true that my 6ft 4 friend Dave drew audible gasps when he got on Tokyo subway trains, it's also the country that's home to sumo.
(I don't have any useful conclusions here, just think it's a strange dichotomy.)
Just the other day I was talking with my husband about how nobody asks questions anymore. I saw a friend this week after a few years, and we are both big conversationalists. We love asking one another questions. Hardly anyone else does though. I listened to someone talk about herself for around an hour recently. She didn't ask me a thing. Luckily I was smoking a joint so I didn't care too much at the time. It's just rude and boring. It's not just men, trust me.
I'm a woman and I'm not good at asking questions. I can't seem to lever them smoothly into the conversation. I also come from a culture where people interrupt and jump in and half the time you never finish what you're saying. So the idea that someone is patiently waiting for me to shut up and say "what about you?" is disconcerting.
Had to skip the incomprehensible part about games 🙄 but thanks for the link 🔗 to your excellent article about the Supreme Court ruling on women - really interesting to compare the politics of Britain and the US 🩵
“The Templars fell somewhat precipitously from their glory days controlling medieval Europe, to deciding the outcome of Bush v Gore.”
Um.. wasn’t the outcome of Bush v Gore quite consequential for bits of what the Templars might have considered important for medieval Europe? Just thinking aloud here.
Fair. I did consider this when writing the joke, but then concluded that sitting in a room wearing robes was a comedown from infiltrating a castle with a stiletto
Now in my 4th career, one of my absolute pleasures of my current job is asking simple questions which are really hard to answer honestly. This is done partly to provoke & open the space inherent within virtual meetings and partly to help the person gradually realise that they have all the answers to their own career direction.
I also insist their answers contain no acronyms or technical language and are in simple tone that a 10yo person can understand.
This is also the joy in my work! It is amazing what people will tell you (have within them!) when you give them space to talk about it. Virtual meetings need more structure/thought in that you can't get away with all the habits we learned for in-person time together. I'd love to hear more about what you're up to.
I have always assumed people who ask no questions have no curiosity about other people -- I hadn't considered that at least some of these people may feel inhibited by a fear of intrusion. Perhaps a good way to suss this out is to just cut in with one's own thoughts or feelings and see what happens...
Yes - cutting in to each other's speeches with something (preferably, but not always, relevant) about oneself/one's interests is a pretty common way for conversations between men to work. Maybe Aella's interlocutor was thinking "why isn't she saying anything? I'm having to do all the work of keeping the conversation going!" I'd be interested to know how well it works when women try it.
Ha! Maybe. But I also think there's a social stratum thing going on. A while ago, one of my agents told me I should stop agreeing to host live events where I asked someone questions, and only BE the one being asked questions. Then people would take me more seriously as a thinker, rather than seeing me as a functionary.
I feel like half of my career in show business is just people telling me to be sociopathic to achieve my goals. If you're a naturally curious and empathetic person I guess that reads to some as low status...
Culturally I'm used to people jumping in and saying their piece. It's a code switch to realize that someone is being polite by asking me stuff and is actually waiting for me to ask them stuff while secretly believing me rude.
In re 'ask people questions' - yes, BUT - do NOT ask them 'How do you know X?' or - the worst - 'And what do YOU do?' (I always hope for this so I can reply, 'Hmm, well, I breathe, I eat, I shit, I fart, occasionally I pick my nose when I think noone is watching'....) Ask them 'What's the best thing that happened to you this week?' or 'How do you decide who to talk to at parties?' You'd be amazed what a bit of imagination will elicit - as you say.
Your piece on the British Supreme Court’s ruling on sex and gender articulated so well the nuances contained. I’m going to send it to my two adult sons who will be interested as they really try to understand but get lost in the heated debates from so many directions. Also, Helen, thank you for pointing out something that women so often talk about between themselves but isn’t often said out loud in mixed company. Men talking endlessly about themselves. Oh God. Having to maintain the fixed expression of polite interest. It’s worse among older men, I’ve noticed the younger ones aren’t so bad.
I wonder if it’s not so much a gender thing as getting older/more successful. I’ve been watching the U.S. Office and one of the things that Michael Scott clearly relishes about being the boss is that whenever he’s bored, he can wander over to his staff and make them entertain him.
Maybe we can use it explicitly as a tactic when stuck in listening mode “I’ve noticed men don’t ask questions as often as women - what questions do you like to ask / what do you find interesting about other people / what question do you love or hate to be asked / ask me a question !” or something ?!
Like Helen my job is asking questions. I’m a researcher, moderating focus groups. I was taught not to respond to any questions asked of me in the group as the sessions are meant to be all about the participants and what they think. My old boss told me once, as preparation, to spend a normal day talking to people without once saying anything about myself. It is astonishing how few people ask. Also so so true about older men just pontificating all the time - I don’t find it true of older women.
Maybe given Helen’s comment, it’s more of an English older men’s thing. There are notable exceptions but the norm is usually as I described above 🙄
Can confirm non-English English-speaking men also exhibit the behaviour, the older they are the worse it is
When a friend of my parents died unexpectedly a few years ago, my mum offhandedly gave him one of the nicest tributes I’d ever heard - “he was always so interested in you when we was talking to you.” It made such sense soon as she said it, about him first of all, but also about the quality of really being curious about whoever you’re talking to.
Thank you for the Atlantic piece and for your voice in general on the gender/sex issue. Some of the commentary from UK journalists who believe themselves to be ‘progressive’ has been so America-brained that it makes me want to scream. Do they not understand the cultural and political differences, or is it just too perilous for them to acknowledge them? I don’t *want* to believe that these people just don’t give a single shit about the particular characteristics of British feminism (which is by no means exclusively GC, but has a much stronger and more successful history of sex-based and radical campaigning than US feminism). But the past week has made it very hard to come to any other conclusion. Is it really possible that so many supposedly sophisticated observers just… don’t conceive of older feminists as being real, actually existing people?
Some of it is chronic America brain, like Carla Denyer talking about the price of eggs (flat here but chaotic in the U.S. because of their bird flu). And some of it is wanting to play the argument on easy mode. Some people on the left think entirely tribally — describing something as “right wing” is all that’s needed to prove its evil — so they’d rather fight Donald Trump than their actually existing opposition, Mumsnet.
Well, no sane person wants to fight Mumsnet... As an example of my own UK-brain, your explanation of why the toilets issue has become so totemic was revelatory. I had always been baffled about why so many people spent most of the past decade wanging on about bogs.
I also think it's because they're unpoliceable, so they will always be a social norm rather than a law (unless we move to a police state, which seems unlikely, given the police haven't even got time for phone and bike thefts).
Well apparently that's because they're arresting parents being cranky on WhatsApp.
Ghost of Tsushima is better than AC: Shadows. Just saying as someone who only gets to play one video game a year 😅
I love your work, always interesting and entertaining. I knew nothing of assassin’s creed and I was intrigued…I had no idea. So thank you, again, for shining a light on something I hadn’t seen…ironically in broad daylight!
"Be interested to be interesting" was advice I heard years ago.
You say you ask questions but many journalists make statements and then stick the microphone under the interviewees nose: it's infuriating. "ask a damn question!" I shout at the TV.
It's a lost skill.
It frustrates the wife that I can come back from spending time with male friends, and none of us did any asking. Didn't you ask about {some_subject}, she'll ask incredulously, and no I didn't, and I din't feel a need to.
It seems to split down gender lines, but even if it doesn't, there are askers and there are tellers. I guess you're the former. Being an "asker" and getting mildly annoyed because "tellers" aren't the same as you ignores these personality differences.
It's like those people who fall asleep instantly getting annoyed at the insomniacs. "Just close your eyes and fall asleep!". It's easy. I do it all the time.
Also - and I hope you'll allow a bit of side-eye here, your job, the thing you love doing the most, is asking people about themselves. Of course other people aren't going to be as good at it as you. How can you expect otherwise?
Well, the thing I love doing the most is receiving hyperbolic, unstinting praise. But I take your point.
I just think if we’re going to take the male loneliness crisis seriously, part of that is encouraging men to seek social connections. Maybe your mate isn’t going to open up about his divorce or losing his job or whatever without feeling permission from someone asking how he is.
So we have to teach them how to do THIS too?! 😂
But seriously, I think Sean has a good point. Relatedly, I've noticed that my husband can be perfectly happy *doing* things together rather than having deep talks. He can go fishing or play board games with friends and come home with his friendship tank full, if that makes sense. But does it still absolutely crush me that I don't think he's literally ever asked me a personal question? Yesssssss
Pop star Robbie Williams said quite recently that he deals with his social anxiety (yes, even apparently-outgoing pop stars can have social anxiety) by pretending to be a podcast host who needs to find out the most interesting things about their guest. So he asks lots of questions.
And if you watch his interviews you’ll notice him doing it - on the Graham Norton show, he asks the other guests questions rather than just wait for Graham to give him an anecdote-cue. And he listens to their answers and follows up.
It really works!
What strikes me about that volleyball story is how important ‘breaking the seal’ was - people kinda knew, but were not talking about it. Once someone spoke up and there was suddenly permission to talk about it openly it completely snowballed.
Also: American College Sports scholarships are barmy, but given their existence it surprises me that female-born students being passed over for them in favour of male-born students wasn’t the crux of the political issue.
That’s what the player I talked to for my piece raised, to be fair — she was one of 11 kids from Hawaii and the scholarship was the only way she could go to uni. I think it’s not mentioned overtly very often because Americans assume it’s a given: sports equal scholarships.
It is a given for opponents of trans ideology, but it's a non-starter with the true believers because they either don't think about how this impacts female students or they begin with the assumption that trans girls are girls and thus are deserving of the scholarship.
The Japan/size thing is interesting. While it's true that my 6ft 4 friend Dave drew audible gasps when he got on Tokyo subway trains, it's also the country that's home to sumo.
(I don't have any useful conclusions here, just think it's a strange dichotomy.)
Just the other day I was talking with my husband about how nobody asks questions anymore. I saw a friend this week after a few years, and we are both big conversationalists. We love asking one another questions. Hardly anyone else does though. I listened to someone talk about herself for around an hour recently. She didn't ask me a thing. Luckily I was smoking a joint so I didn't care too much at the time. It's just rude and boring. It's not just men, trust me.
I'm a woman and I'm not good at asking questions. I can't seem to lever them smoothly into the conversation. I also come from a culture where people interrupt and jump in and half the time you never finish what you're saying. So the idea that someone is patiently waiting for me to shut up and say "what about you?" is disconcerting.
Good point. I come from an interupting culture too. I actually love an interactive conversation..
Had to skip the incomprehensible part about games 🙄 but thanks for the link 🔗 to your excellent article about the Supreme Court ruling on women - really interesting to compare the politics of Britain and the US 🩵
“The Templars fell somewhat precipitously from their glory days controlling medieval Europe, to deciding the outcome of Bush v Gore.”
Um.. wasn’t the outcome of Bush v Gore quite consequential for bits of what the Templars might have considered important for medieval Europe? Just thinking aloud here.
Fair. I did consider this when writing the joke, but then concluded that sitting in a room wearing robes was a comedown from infiltrating a castle with a stiletto
Ah OK if you’re thinking in AC contexts then yes. And sorry for killing the frog.
Now in my 4th career, one of my absolute pleasures of my current job is asking simple questions which are really hard to answer honestly. This is done partly to provoke & open the space inherent within virtual meetings and partly to help the person gradually realise that they have all the answers to their own career direction.
I also insist their answers contain no acronyms or technical language and are in simple tone that a 10yo person can understand.
This is also the joy in my work! It is amazing what people will tell you (have within them!) when you give them space to talk about it. Virtual meetings need more structure/thought in that you can't get away with all the habits we learned for in-person time together. I'd love to hear more about what you're up to.
I have always assumed people who ask no questions have no curiosity about other people -- I hadn't considered that at least some of these people may feel inhibited by a fear of intrusion. Perhaps a good way to suss this out is to just cut in with one's own thoughts or feelings and see what happens...
Yes - cutting in to each other's speeches with something (preferably, but not always, relevant) about oneself/one's interests is a pretty common way for conversations between men to work. Maybe Aella's interlocutor was thinking "why isn't she saying anything? I'm having to do all the work of keeping the conversation going!" I'd be interested to know how well it works when women try it.
Ha! Maybe. But I also think there's a social stratum thing going on. A while ago, one of my agents told me I should stop agreeing to host live events where I asked someone questions, and only BE the one being asked questions. Then people would take me more seriously as a thinker, rather than seeing me as a functionary.
I feel like half of my career in show business is just people telling me to be sociopathic to achieve my goals. If you're a naturally curious and empathetic person I guess that reads to some as low status...
"If you're a naturally curious and empathetic person I guess that reads to some as low status..."
Very true (at least for men).
Culturally I'm used to people jumping in and saying their piece. It's a code switch to realize that someone is being polite by asking me stuff and is actually waiting for me to ask them stuff while secretly believing me rude.
In re 'ask people questions' - yes, BUT - do NOT ask them 'How do you know X?' or - the worst - 'And what do YOU do?' (I always hope for this so I can reply, 'Hmm, well, I breathe, I eat, I shit, I fart, occasionally I pick my nose when I think noone is watching'....) Ask them 'What's the best thing that happened to you this week?' or 'How do you decide who to talk to at parties?' You'd be amazed what a bit of imagination will elicit - as you say.