Re: Kellie-Jay Keen. As far as I know, Andy Ngo was only at the event in Brighton and wasn’t publicising his presence. And if anything the antifa behaviour was better there than in the previous rally. One woman being taken out of context over the word ‘eradicate’ shouldn’t make a right wing conspiracy and I am glad KJK defended her. The ‘Whose Body Is It?’ podcast recently interviewed KD Yang and Amy Sousa about the NYC event and they give more context about what happened. I have spoken twice at U.K. events and it’s remarkably liberating. You know lots of people are watching and it’s easy to mess up. But it’s courageous too. You wrote an amazing book about how feminist progress is messy and complicated, Helen. This is a grassroots movement and full of amazing women.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Emma, and I’m glad you found the experience of speaking a productive one. Andy Ngo is a frequent booster of Standing for Women events, posting about Cardiff and New York for eg. He’s not posting about WPUK or feminist book launches or FILIA... where excellent feminism is also being done. The Standing for Women events “brand” is now about the possibility of a ruck.
I’m afraid that one of the things which makes me feel compelled to criticise Keen is that she regards no possible criticism as legitimate. Last time I did so on twitter (very mildly) she went ballistic on YouTube, and her fans piled on to me for 72 hours. I’ve seen those dynamics before, and they’re not healthy. Julie Bindel doesn’t have fans like that. Caitlin Moran doesn’t have fans like that. Jess Phillips doesn’t have fans like that. The last person I really encountered who did was Jeremy Corbyn.
If you can’t even disavow extermination rhetoric then you’ve basically said there’s nothing you won’t defend. That’s her choice but I think it’s the wrong one.
My book was about exactly how feminism will always have disagreements and it should focus on the shared cause. (This is a moot point anyway since KJK says she’s not a feminist.) I don’t share a cause with someone who wants armed men in bathrooms to harass gender non conforming people. I don’t share a cause with the Christian right in the US, or white nationalists, or anti-feminists like Sargon of Akkad. Those people have fundamentally different visions of what the “end state” looks like here -- so different that an alliance is unwise, in my view.
Also, on a tactical level, the greatest barrier to GC views getting a hearing in the US is the perception that they’re associated with the religious right and the far right.
So I’m afraid we’ll have to be very difficult and agree to disagree!
Tbf Andy Ngo’s cause is Antifa, and he covers events where Antifa are. And Antifa then draw others in opposition. The more interesting question is why is Antifa at women’s events and things like Drag Queen Story Hour?
I think you are being disingenuous about ‘gender nonconforming people’ there. And she isn’t in an alliance with any of those groups. I’m certainly not. I recommend braving the balaclavas and coming to one of the Speakers Corner events :-)
Because they know people like Andy Ngo will be there! It’s a cycle. And if I were organising feminist events atm it’s one I would try to break. (Julie B and I went to talk to some of the protesters at FILIA last year and the ones at the stand were positively mouse-like. It was a group of students who turned up later to draw knobs and obscene slogans on the steps.)
As for the loos, I’m just against vigilante stuff in a country where so many people are armed. It’s a recipe for a fatality. The solution to keeping women’s spaces is policy and institutional enforcement, not a contest of who has the bigger weapons and who is willing to use them.
I will come to a Speakers Corner in the New Year. I’d like to see what you and other women have found there and experience the atmosphere for myself. Reporting is always a good thing :)
Re: Kellie-Jay Keen. As far as I know, Andy Ngo was only at the event in Brighton and wasn’t publicising his presence. And if anything the antifa behaviour was better there than in the previous rally. One woman being taken out of context over the word ‘eradicate’ shouldn’t make a right wing conspiracy and I am glad KJK defended her. The ‘Whose Body Is It?’ podcast recently interviewed KD Yang and Amy Sousa about the NYC event and they give more context about what happened. I have spoken twice at U.K. events and it’s remarkably liberating. You know lots of people are watching and it’s easy to mess up. But it’s courageous too. You wrote an amazing book about how feminist progress is messy and complicated, Helen. This is a grassroots movement and full of amazing women.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Emma, and I’m glad you found the experience of speaking a productive one. Andy Ngo is a frequent booster of Standing for Women events, posting about Cardiff and New York for eg. He’s not posting about WPUK or feminist book launches or FILIA... where excellent feminism is also being done. The Standing for Women events “brand” is now about the possibility of a ruck.
I’m afraid that one of the things which makes me feel compelled to criticise Keen is that she regards no possible criticism as legitimate. Last time I did so on twitter (very mildly) she went ballistic on YouTube, and her fans piled on to me for 72 hours. I’ve seen those dynamics before, and they’re not healthy. Julie Bindel doesn’t have fans like that. Caitlin Moran doesn’t have fans like that. Jess Phillips doesn’t have fans like that. The last person I really encountered who did was Jeremy Corbyn.
If you can’t even disavow extermination rhetoric then you’ve basically said there’s nothing you won’t defend. That’s her choice but I think it’s the wrong one.
My book was about exactly how feminism will always have disagreements and it should focus on the shared cause. (This is a moot point anyway since KJK says she’s not a feminist.) I don’t share a cause with someone who wants armed men in bathrooms to harass gender non conforming people. I don’t share a cause with the Christian right in the US, or white nationalists, or anti-feminists like Sargon of Akkad. Those people have fundamentally different visions of what the “end state” looks like here -- so different that an alliance is unwise, in my view.
Also, on a tactical level, the greatest barrier to GC views getting a hearing in the US is the perception that they’re associated with the religious right and the far right.
So I’m afraid we’ll have to be very difficult and agree to disagree!
Tbf Andy Ngo’s cause is Antifa, and he covers events where Antifa are. And Antifa then draw others in opposition. The more interesting question is why is Antifa at women’s events and things like Drag Queen Story Hour?
I think you are being disingenuous about ‘gender nonconforming people’ there. And she isn’t in an alliance with any of those groups. I’m certainly not. I recommend braving the balaclavas and coming to one of the Speakers Corner events :-)
Because they know people like Andy Ngo will be there! It’s a cycle. And if I were organising feminist events atm it’s one I would try to break. (Julie B and I went to talk to some of the protesters at FILIA last year and the ones at the stand were positively mouse-like. It was a group of students who turned up later to draw knobs and obscene slogans on the steps.)
As for the loos, I’m just against vigilante stuff in a country where so many people are armed. It’s a recipe for a fatality. The solution to keeping women’s spaces is policy and institutional enforcement, not a contest of who has the bigger weapons and who is willing to use them.
I will come to a Speakers Corner in the New Year. I’d like to see what you and other women have found there and experience the atmosphere for myself. Reporting is always a good thing :)
Would be great to see you.
Links for me are underlined... Problem fixed or reader dependant?